Loren Goldner's left communism

Submitted by posi on 1 August, 2008 - 10:03.

I just thought I'd post the link to this interview, because it's particularly good. Basically, it covers off Goldner's political perspective on alot of the major theoretical questions (unions, nationalism, councilism, the bolsheviks, etc.), and situating them within the left communist tradition in a very accessible way (helped me understand Bordiga a bit more, for instance):

http://home.earthlink.net/~lrgoldner/sanoshin.html

I'd always thought of left communism as being a bit mad (as manifest by the ICC), but Goldner makes it seem coherent, considered and plausible - partly by kicking the ICC all over the shop. It's great that this is now part of the theoretical record:

Goldner wrote:
If you're not familiar, I really recommend this website which is a website of... It's called libcom.org -libertarian communist. They have really interesting coverage of struggles all over the world. There is one place you can see a lot of these. They even allow the ICC to participate in their debates but everybody just kind of laughs at the ICC.

Anyway, I know it's been linked to before (I think in one of the anarchism vs. marxism debates), but I think it's worth reading the whole thing.

I think Goldner still holds onto an odd pre/post-1917 split in the analysis of nationalism, while appearing to successfully have broken with that in respect of unions. This is from an email to a friend on the subject:

I wrote:
OK, so I'm at the outer limits of what I can credibly talk about here, but I believe that Goldner is idealising, when he draws a pre/post 1917 distinction. First, he's too kind on Marx, and second he generalises too much on modern nationalisms - the pre/post 1917 distinction is just a way to keep hard-line communist conclusions about the world we live in, while not having to repudiate Marx, and call him a nationalist - that would be awkward. He writes, "In contrast, I think, in modern history, which is to say, after World War I, it's possible to say that a coherent nation state can't be created by bourgeois nationalism. I don't see any case in which that has been a step towards the unification of the world working class."

Now what does he mean when he says a coherent state can't be created by bourgeois nationalism? What about India, China, Bangladesh, Pakistan? Are these not coherent? Or does he just mean that he can't see the creation of federations - i.e. principalities emerging to create bigger states - only division and secession. So: nationalisms which create bigger, stable states are fine, but secessions are bad - from a class POV? Are workers more unified the more under one state system they are? Are workers in the EU now more united? Possibly - but does that mean communists are for the EU? Anyway, he goes on -

"Marx supported Polish nationalism. He supported Irish nationalism against British imperialism but he also opposed some of the Balkan uprisings in the 1870s. Why? Because they would strengthen Russia expansionism by weakening the Ottoman Empire and he thought continual containment of Russian expansionism was more important for the world working class than the creation of the independent nations out of the Ottoman Empire."

Goldner later criticises Vietnamese nationalism. But what was true of Vietnamese nationalism that was not true of Irish nationalism, or vice versa? Why could you not argue for the Vietnamese national movement on the ground that its defeat would 'strengthen US expansionism' or that it was 'against US imperialism'? In my view, the critical lens that is turned on modern nationalism is not turned on the national movements of Marx's day/pre-1917...

I guess sommeone will have an answer for me on that...

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear other critique of Goldner, as he comes across in this interview.

1 August, 2008 - 12:07
Quote:
"I think that the Korean working class is generally in retreat and on the defensive like the working class just about everywhere else."

not to judge by the news section on this site it's not...

Quote:
"I agree with the ICC and IP that in around the time of World War I in 1914, capitalism reached certain point in history in which it ceased to be a progressive mode of production on a world scale. Historically we see that in the first century of capitalism's existence from the early 19th century to 1914, there was a steady development of productive forces, and a growth of the working class on a world scale. And I believe that what happened in the period, let's say the decade prior to World War I, capitalism got to stage where that kind of development could no longer happen in a peaceful evolutionary manner."

oh god, here we go again reducing people to machines of production and consumption and worshiping 'the development of productive forces.' ... and that's not even really true. it has always been a regressive mode. capitalism sabotages productivity. it was doing that back then too... controls prices that way.

Quote:
"SaNoShin: What is the notion of decadence? Is it not the same as the ICC's?
LG: Let me just add one more thing. Different regions in the world, East Asia (Japan, Korea, China, Taiwan), Russia, India, Europe, are all unsatisfied with the current world system, and would like to reorganize it. But none of them is individually strong enough to overthrow the power of the United States. I think that's the kind of world geo-political context for the ongoing crisis.
But nevertheless this is only one level of the problem. The deeper level is that, as in 1914, there cannot be an expanded world boom, it couldn't be within a capitalist framework because I believe that capitalist law of value is no longer capable of expanding the world productive forces in the same way it did prior to 1914.
The reason for that is that socially necessary labor time of reproduction is the foundation for capitalist accumulation. That's what I mean when I say that capitalist productivity increases and makes the world workers' wage bill become a smaller part of the total, though its material content can rise.
In this system, you know, as the Communist Manifesto says, the crisis occurs because the system is too productive to be contained within capitalist social relationships.
So what it had to do from 1914 to 1945 was to destroy productive forces and most importantly, workers to recreate conditions for accumulation using capitalist exchange, The capitalist law of value, to create a new foundation in which capitalist commodity exchange at the cost of reproduction could take place within capitalist social relationships after the mass destruction. And since the early 1970s, we've seen new massive destruction trying to achieve the same thing."

(fails to answer question at all, quotes commie manifesto)
the foundation for capitalist accumulation is socially UNnecessary labor time. surplus value. workers recreate the conditions for their own alienation using capitalist exchange... the conditions for accumulation are created by the capitalist organization of exploitation and waste is a necessary part of that. the crisis occurs because the system's too unproductive of human social relationships.

Quote:
"SaNoShin: I think all revolutionaries should be militants but that's not all.
LG: Yes, right. And the problem is to combine being a good militant with something that is really pointing beyond immediate militancy, beyond trade unionism.
SaNoShin: In Korea, there have been many militant workers since 1987 but they didn't go beyond militancy or militant unionism and nowadays are just unionists. I think it's the revolutionaries' fault. The militant workers could have become revolutionaries but the majority of the revolutionaries failed to carry out the revolutionary principles with them. And degenerated themselves to mere unionists
....
LG:...And I just wanted to say, there's a great expression for what happens to revolutionary militants who just become ordinary militants, which is "If you quack like a duck long enough, you will grow webbed feet"

words words words. militants are so boring.

1 August, 2008 - 12:33
anarchyjordan wrote:
oh god, here we go again reducing people to machines of production and consumption and worshiping 'the development of productive forces.' ...

Are you even reading the interview or just looking out for key phrases to disagree with? All he's saying that as capitalism developed, more people became workers rather than peasants or serfs. This is true. You know, that whole thing about capitalism giving birth to its own gravediggers..

Quote:
words words words. militants are so boring.

Funny. It seems that you read the title of OJTR's 'Militancy - The highest stage of alienation' and drew your whole ideology (and I mean Ideology) from it. I think it was said before on here about how a lot of current pro-situs typify the exact 'Situationism' that the situationists rallied against. Again, all he said there was that if you don't push struggles outside the bourgeois framework, you'll get sucked into it. Similar, though less dramatic than, 'those who make revolutions half-way only dig their own graves'..

roll eyes

1 August, 2008 - 12:58
anarchyjordan wrote:
Quote:
"I think that the Korean working class is generally in retreat and on the defensive like the working class just about everywhere else."

not to judge by the news section on this site it's not...

There's nothing in the news section of this site which suggests that the class isn't in retreat. I think the past few years show a possibility that the decades of rout might be ending, but at best we're looking at a minor regroup in a few sectors and a few countries at the moment, certainly not an offensive.

1 August, 2008 - 18:37

I think Goldner frames the current situation quite well:

Quote:
I don't want to stretch the parallel too far but in America in early 60s as the New Left movement was beginning there was a wide spread hostility to Marxism and in the course of 6-8 years, these kinds of libertarian rejections of Marxism went into decline and people became more and more attracted to different kinds of Marxism.

And I believe something similar is happening today. There's a real Marxist renaissance going on in western Europe and the US and many people that I'm familiar with have started out as anarchists, and Situationists and they relatively quickly find their way to the study of Capital and the serious study of the failures of the old revolutionary movement and become left communist or close to left communist.

Anarchism, for example, is really not very interesting as a theory of contemporary capitalist society and people who are attracted to it because it rejects Soviet Marxist or Maoist models, very quickly get bored with it and that's when they begin to discover the richer Marxist alternative.

That's what's happening not just in South Korea, but globally. Many people influenced by anarchism and Trotskysim/Maoism are going through a process of questioning and are searching for alternatives, as Goldner says, to the 'left' of Trotskyism. The ICC is in contact and discussion with many such groups around the world.

I can understand why those coming from a leftist background may find his flavour of left communism more palatable - you can see in the interview that his conception of decadence isn't fully coherent: while he's 'hard' on nationalism, he's softer on trade unions, the counter-revolutionary nature of the leftist groups and parties, and the need for a revolutionary organisation for example. He's from a leftist background, being interviewed by a group influenced by leftism, and is criticised here by someone who seems to support certain leftist positions (national liberation?) Breaking from leftism and accepting the coherence of the full programme of the communist left is a big pill to swallow. No wonder some prefer the comfort of a half-way house that allows them to hang on to certain leftist positions. I guess that's where some people will stay, but others will want to go further.

As for Goldner 'kicking the ICC all over the shop' it felt more like being gummed by a newt. For a start, on the economic crisis, he says that:

Quote:
I don't think they have really developed at all to take account of the evolution of capitalism in the last 50 years, possibly more. The ICC thinks basically that nothing new ever happens. And they consider people who think that something new happens to be modernists and eclectic. For that reason I find what the ICC says about world economy to be pretty abstract and boring...

And the ICC never talks about what I just talked about. That's why they can't intelligently discuss the nature of post WWII boom or the development of capitalism in East Asia since 1970s.

Maybe people can read about the internal discussion we have been having on this question for several years and make up their own minds:

Internal debate: the causes of the post-1945 economic boom
http://en.internationalism.org/ir/133/economic_debate_decadence

We have also written extensively on the economic developments in the Far East:

The "Asian Dragons" run out of steam (1997)
http://en.internationalism.org/ir/89/dragons

The sources, contradictions and limitations of the growth in Eastern Asia (2008)
http://en.internationalism.org/ir/133/china

There are also points that could be made about his method, which is pretty shoddy for an academic, but we can leave this for another time...

smile

B.

1 August, 2008 - 19:54
Beltov wrote:

There are also points that could be made about his method, which is pretty shoddy for an academic, but we can leave this for another time...

smile

B.

afaik, he's employed teaching English as a Second Language, not as an academic.

2 August, 2008 - 11:45

Loren´s comments on the ICC in that interview are rather unworthy of him. In the conference in Korea in which we both took part a year or so ago his attitude was much more serious and fraternal. i don´t think he follows libcom very closely if he thinks that everyone on here just laughs at what we have to say. Despite all the sniggering and silly decadence jokes that go on, there are any number of serious discussions involving members or sympathisers of the ICC and a wide range of other posters.

Among the groups we are discussing with, Sanoshin is included, and this has continued despite whatever Loren may have said in the interview. They still have many leftist positions, but their attitude to debate is open.

Catch is right I think about Loren´s profession.

9 August, 2008 - 12:43

I enjoyed the interview, thanks for Posi for posting it up.

His comments on unions and unionism were interesting and not what I expected, being highly practical and realistic.

11 August, 2008 - 14:05

I also enjoyed this interview and was impressed by Goldner's lack of dogmatism, particularly on the subject of 'extra-unionism'. I'd generally agree with Posi's comments on Goldner's historical analysis, it certainly seems like a type of intellectual juggling to keep himself on the right side of Marx without neglecting history altogether. As for his comments on the ICC, it seems from the interview and the comments here that Goldner might be having some sort of a fight for influence with the ICC over the Sanoshin group, which would explain his very dismissive attitiude in the interview, as well as the ICC's reaction.

I disagree strongly with his comments on anarchism however, it's extraordinarily arrogant to presume that any anarchist worth his or her salt will naturally cross over to Marxism. While it is no doubt true that Marxism offers a far deeper analysis of capitalism than anarchism does, anarchism remains correct on the question of authority and the unity of means and ends in political practice. This is an analysis which Marx and his descendants famously got wrong, to the detriment of millions of people who lived under the Bolshevik counter-revolution, and in fact the workers movement as a whole. For these principles, I am proud to call myself an anarchist while seeing no contradiction in gleefully plundering the treasure chest of Marxism's better bits.

It was posted here previously, but here is a link to an interesting radio interview with Goldner for anyone who missed it.

11 August, 2008 - 15:06

before you dismiss this brief run-down of LG's analysis of decadence, (which is really just a not-perfectly-worded short summary and doesn't explain much), I'd strongly recommend you read his The Re-Making of the American Working Class, which outlines his take on the social productivity of capitalism as a force for historical progress.

you're really just talking semantics here, anarchyjordan. LG's argument regarding capitalism as a force for progress (discussed at length in the above text) is basically (if I understand him right):

For a while, capitalism as a mode of production was able to increase the productivity of human labor by spurring on technological innovation (which makes 1 hour of work do what previous took 3 hours of work, or whatever) by its heteronomic (chaotic, competitive) nature. Now human labor has become SO productive, that to invest massively in any further increase in technology which increases productivity would actually devalue for fixed capital (on a world scale) than it would create surplus value for the capitalist, and thus, on a world scale, the total reproductive powers of humanity have been stagnant since this point was reached (1914 according to most decadence theories).

Sure capitalism always amounted to amassing profit for an unproductive class, but so has every other class society prior to it. There is no way a continent-spanning railroad would have been built by small manufacturing guilds and thus capitalism had, besides of its life-sacrificing, soul-sucking, profit goal, the by-product of increasing the productive powers of the species. According to decadence theorists, this by-product is no longer with us.

11 August, 2008 - 15:11

I'm new here, but I've been reading LG & the ICC's website for near on 3 years and I'm still a little foggy as to the ICC's specific disagreements about decadence with LG. Have you or any other ICC-ers read his Remaking of the American Working Class? What do you think of his explanation of capitalist crisis, expanded social reproduction, etc.? When I read that work it seemed to make a lot of sense to me, but I'm not yet terribly versed in the volumes 2 & 3 of Capital, or Rosa Luxemburg's Accumulation of Capital. Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your (or someone else from the ICC's) thoughts on that piece, if you get a chance. Thanks.

12 August, 2008 - 08:31

That's a big question! I'll try to get back to you on this but it may take a while.

12 August, 2008 - 08:41
rtotalexvii612 wrote:
I'm new here, but I've been reading LG & the ICC's website for near on 3 years and I'm still a little foggy as to the ICC's specific disagreements about decadence with LG. Have you or any other ICC-ers read his Remaking of the American Working Class? What do you think of his explanation of capitalist crisis, expanded social reproduction, etc.? When I read that work it seemed to make a lot of sense to me, but I'm not yet terribly versed in the volumes 2 & 3 of Capital, or Rosa Luxemburg's Accumulation of Capital. Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your (or someone else from the ICC's) thoughts on that piece, if you get a chance. Thanks.

I haven't read it personally but I'll take a look at it and have a chat with the others to see if we can answer your question.

B.

12 August, 2008 - 14:58

Sure. Thanks. Remaking is a very long work, although the 1st chapter seems to contain the bulk of the argument.

12 August, 2008 - 15:54

I found this video with LG where he talks about his theory on ficticious capital:
http://vodpod.com/watch/585197-talk-by-loren-goldner-part-i

12 September, 2008 - 15:27

We've just published an open letter to Loren which takes up his interview with Sanoshin:

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2008/09/loren_goldner_open_letter

13 September, 2008 - 14:00

Thank you for that interesting video clip.

We in the WSM/SPGB forum have actually discussed this issue before so I would like to throw in my 2 pennies worth. This is obviously old stuff that I have cut and pasted. I would like to point out that with this kind of thing I have made simplifications just to get across the general idea. There are some differences of opinion on this kind of thing so the following is really my opinion on it for what it is worth.

On Capitalisation of Surplus Value/fictitious capital;

Quote:
I think much of the problems we are seeing know revolves around the
issue of fictitious capital or capitalisation of surplus value or
capitalisation of interest payments on debt.

The capitalists think thus roughly, again a model;

Let the average rate of profit per year, what you can get from
dividends on shares or money invested in a bank etc be 5%.

Then $100 will earn you $5 un-earned income

Then they do something `clever', they say if something provides $5 a
year, like a magic purse for instance then the magic purse is worth
$100.

Now debt or interests on a debt may `promise' to provide you with an
income of $5, so such an IOU is nominally worth something like $100.

The problem with these IOU's, bonds, or collateralised debt
obligations, CDO's, after they have been bundled and mixed up
together and resold and bought and passed through many hands is that
no one is too sure what they are. Apart from an unearned income
stream.

The concern then grows that the debt or the money loaned has been
spent and `pissed up against the wall' by ‘lazy Americans’ and the
initial interest payments have themselves been paid by borrowing
more money from elsewhere.

Interestingly they seem to have been using these CDO's as money
itself .swapping them for other stuff, just as with money, in the
buying and selling game in the banking community.

As confidence fell in the real value of these CDO's as potentially
toxic debt they became to be viewed like counterfeit money and
nobody would accept them in exchange for anything. Hence the
liquidity crisis and the requirements of the central banks to
inject `real' counterfeit money, greenback dollars, into the money
markets.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/message/33538

And;

Quote:
Just looked for and found this so let Karl do it his way;

"The formation of a fictitious capital is called capitalisation.
Every periodic income is capitalised by calculating it on the basis
of the average rate of interest, as an income which would be realised
by a capital loaned at this rate of interest. For example, if the
annual income is £100 and the rate of interest 5%, then the £100
would represent the annual interest on £2,000, and the £2,000 is
regarded as the capital-value of the legal title of ownership on the
£100 annually.

For the person who buys this title of ownership, the annual income of
£100 represents indeed the interest on his capital invested at 5%.
All connection with the actual expansion process of capital is thus
completely lost, and the conception of capital as something with
automatic self-expansion properties is thereby strengthened."

(There is yet another in MIA error in this quote, tut-tut, as they
have a £400 instead of a £100.)

And;

"The independent movement of the value of these titles of ownership,
not only of government bonds but also of stocks, adds weight to the
illusion that they constitute real capital alongside of the capital
or claim to which they may have title. For they become commodities,
whose price has its own characteristic movements and is established
in its own way. Their market-value is determined differently from
their nominal value, without any change in the value (even though the
expansion may change) of the actual capital. On the one hand, their
market-value fluctuates with the amount and reliability of the
proceeds to which they afford legal title.

If the nominal value of a share of stock, that is, the invested sum
originally represented by this share, is £100, and the enterprise
pays 10% instead of 5%, then its market-value, everything else
remaining equal, rises to £200, as long as the rate of interest is
5%, for when capitalised at 5%, it now represents a fictitious
capital of £200. Whoever buys it for £200 receives a revenue of 5% on
this investment of capital. The converse is true when the proceeds
from the enterprise diminish. The market-value of this paper is in
part speculative, since it is determined not only by the actual
income, but also by the anticipated income, which is calculated in
advance. "

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch29.htm

So in conclusion your ex share dealer is correct that there can be a
serious disconnect between the value of shares and its actual
concrete value. Also when a company goes belly up the value of the
capital can become worth so much scrap metal. Although if it falls
too far somebody else can buy it up for a lot less and make a go of
it.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/message/36125

………………………………………………………………

Quote:
On the Collaterised Debt Obligation thing and the dross the banks have
been left with after having created it and sold it to each other.

I think it works in detail something like this;

An institution will borrow $1000 million dollars on the `short term
money markets' which means that they have to pay it back soon. With
that they would lend it out to mortgage companies and then on to house-
buyers and get back 20 year obligations to pay interest. These are to
be at circa 10% when they have re-set after the teaser rate period etc
and thus will provide an income stream of say $100 million.

A load of mortgages and interest repayments bundled together.

Just for simplicity I am going to ignore how the principal, the amount
borrowed, is going to be paid off. .Anyway they could be interest only
mortgages or the persons taking out the loan could have some kind of
endowment or separate saving policy to pay it off after 20 years.

I am also going to assume that the general interest rate or acceptable
interest rate on the money markets is 5% on a AAA+ rated super secure
dead safe loan.

What the organisation will do with its 20 year $100 million a year
income stream is split it up into portions. The owner of the first
portion will get paid off first and has priority over the owners of the
lower ranked portions. The owner of the lowest rank portion will only
get paid in full if all the income stream is obtained or will only get
what is left after the others are paid.

It is just the general idea of how it works and what I think has
happened that is important, the details aren't.

The first portion of the income stream will be $10 million a year and
is kept by the organisation that sets up the CDO and will be invested
in a safe place at 5% to accumulate in 20 years to $200 million +.
(Lets say a reserve fund)

(I am not bothering to compound interest rates etc,so it will be more)

That leaves a $90 million income stream to be `sold' off or more
accurately invested in.

The first $45 million income stream or first `tranche' to be `sold' or
invested in is `bought' for $675 million, marked to value by an
investment bank like Bear Sterns that is `interested' in understanding
these kind of things.

On the agreement, for simplicity that $675 million that is invested, or
the principal, will be returned after 20 years. That is the same as
putting $675 million in a bank for 20 years on fixed interest rate of
6.7%.

But as these things act like bonds if you get fed up with it you can
sell it on later to somebody else for what ever they might be prepared
to pay for it eg $620 million.

So;

1st income stream of $45m sold for $675m for an effective interest
rate of 6.7%

2nd income stream of $20m sold for $240m for an effective interest
rate of 8.3%

3rd income stream of $10m sold for $100m for an effective interest
rate of 10%

4th income stream of $10m sold for $80m for an effective interest rate
of 12.5%

5th income stream of $5m sold for $25m for an effective interest rate
of 20%

Hence once they have `sold' or got investors for all 5 income streams
they have a grand total of $1120 million.

They can then repay back $1000 borrowed on the short term money markets
and will be left themselves with $120 million which will no doubt be
divided up as corporate dividends, bonuses and kickbacks etc.

At the end of the 20 years the principal for all 5 investors ie the
amount they initially invested, will need to be repaid this will come
out the people who took the mortgage out paying off the principal like
you do with an endowment policy. So they will provide $1000 million.
There will also be the additional $200 million from the reserve fund
that will make up $1200 million that will be more than enough to pay of
the initial amounts invested by the 5 investor groups of $1120 million.

This was basically the game that Bear Stearns and Northern Rock was
playing when they got caught out in mid stream with their pants down.

The problem has been with the 5th, 4th and to some extent 3rd income
stream but there is a knock on effect on them all.

The question is what happens if 25% of mortgages default and go into
foreclosure or just as importantly even threaten too. The annual income
stream would loose $25 million. The 5th, 4th, and 3rd traunches would
be entitled to no income on their investment and thus those investments
or CDO's would be worthless or worth a lot less than they paid for
them.

Even assuming the plainly ridiculous that the full in value of the
house or collateral is to be recovered In which case the fund would
recover $250 million. It is highly unlikely that it would have been
arranged to use it for the 5th, 4th and 3rd to receive back the value
of their investment. As this would mean the play it safe the 2nd and
1st would see the collateral base of their $915 million investment
reduced to $750 million.

(The $250 million recovered from foreclosures could I suppose be re
invested by the fund at 5% to produce $12.5 million. That would be
enough to keep the 3rd going and provide some income for the 4th but
the nominal value of that CDO would drop by, well a lot and there will
a knock on effect on fall in nominal value on all of them.)

The 5th income stream that people paid $25 million for is now worthless
and is referred to `toxic waste'.

Who bought it all is questionable. Some reputable institutions like
European banks obviously bought some as part of their exciting
investment portfolio. They have `owned' up to it and `written it down'
as a bad loss. Although apparently there is still quite a bit of
it `missing' or some organisations are not admitting that they have
lost a load of money.

The 4th income stream entitlement is probably selling at less 10 cents
to the dollar or 10% of what paid for it.

What probably happened to Northern Rock is that these kind of things
take a while to set up. So they would be in the process of borrowing
£1000 million on the short term money market for say a month and
loaning it for 20 years to little budding homeowners.

The expected income stream was then to be likewise parcelled up and
sold off. The 5th and 4th traunch became un-sellable and the total
value 3rd 2nd and 1st fell below the £1000 million Northern Rock had
borrowed themselves that was due to be repaid in a months time.

(This was probably more to do with infectious fright that had spread
from the US housing market than anything real in the UK even though we
have our own housing bubble and tend to follow the US in everything.)

As nobody likes to be owed money by a loser the prospects for Northern
Rock of rolling over the 30 day loan ie continuing to borrow it for a
bit longer was nil.

Depositors taking fright and demanding their money back that was not
really there as most of it had already been loaned out for the next 20
years or whatever didn't help. Hence they went bellyup.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spopen/message/7411

………………………………………….

There has been recently an interesting article on Informationclearinghouse recently on this and a debt peonage take on the situation;

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20709.htm

To me it looks like there is a reflection of a conflict of interest here between the interest bearing or finance capitalists and the ‘industrial capitalists’ or profiteers of interests that Karl touched on Volume III.

Again we did discuss this in those terms a while ago.

Quote:
I think we discussed peonage or de-facto slavery earlier.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/message/31168

There is an article on the possible impending collapse in house
price bubble in the US at;

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15689.htm

If the American working class have borrowed so much money that
almost all of their labour time is spent working to pay the interest
on a loan or `advance' that was taken out to purchase a home that
becomes worth a fraction of its former value.

In other words they have `negative equity' ie they owe a load more
than they own. Then they will become the de facto property of the
mortgage companies. They really will be (peon) slaves. Particularly
as now I believe it is much more difficult to declare yourself
bankrupt in the USA.

Or as Karl put it;

Third footnote chapter 6 volume one, Capital

"……….slavery is hidden under the form of peonage. By means of
advances, repayable in labour,"

Or interests payments on mortgages.

" ……………not only the individual labourer, but his family, become, de
facto, the property of other persons and their families."

Or mortgage companies.

"Juarez abolished peonage. The so-called Emperor Maximilian re-
established it by a decree, which, in the House of Representatives
at Washington, was aptly denounced as a decree for the re-
introduction of slavery into Mexico."

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/message/31448

So if some bemused American ‘peon’ in negative equity or up to their eyeball in credit card debt asks what is ‘fictitious capital’? Well just show them to the nearest mirror.

Peonage is obviously not that much different to slavery, although now in the US there is obviously no longer a ‘colour’ bar.

The fictitious capital or more correctly capitalisation of surplus value. Or even more correctly the capitalisation of surplus profit from the differential ground rent is why a patch of land ie a bit of desert with no labour embodied in it ie virgin land can have a ‘price’ or exchange value.

Depending on what lies beneath it obviously.